Does “every kiss begins with Kay”?
Kay Jewelers was founded in 1916 when the first store was opened by two brothers; Sol and Edmund Kaufmann. The company’s philosophy is to “provide customers with top quality jewelry, outstanding value and service”.
Currently, they are one of America’s largest jewelry chains and have retail presences in many large sized shopping malls across the country.
Although Kay Jewelers is well known as a traditional brick and mortar jewelry store, they had been expanding their e-commerce operations (since 2005) to tap into the thriving online consumer market.
In recent years, their e-commerce store has seen a growing range of engagement ring products and diamond based jewelry. And that’s what I would cover in this review of Kay.com.
In a world where online jewelry stores have become ubiquitous, there are a number of features that have become critical if a business wants to survive in this competitive landscape. Such basic services in today’s market include free shipping, easy financing and money-back guarantee (Kay offers 60 days) to remove risk from the consumer during a purchase.
With regards to the products offered, any online jewelry store that wants to stay competitive has to offer easy customization and a selection range so wide that it far exceeds what you can find in a single physical storefront.
These are the basic features and advantages of going online – and Kay.com has all of these.
However, when it comes to providing differentiating features that make a particular service stand out from the crowd, it can be unimaginably hard. Like most credible e-commerce stores, Kay has decent sales policies but they don’t go above and beyond to offer features that really wow customers.
Kay’s online store sells a variety of jewelry engagement rings with different materials like diamonds, pearls and gemstones. For the purpose of this review, I will only focus on their diamond based jewelry (well, I’m not an expert with other gemstones and I don’t pretend to be one).
At Kays, you have the option of purchasing a pre-set engagement ring or building a diamond ring from scratch using their Design-a-Ring feature. While there are pros and cons to both methods, I would recommend taking the route of building your own ring.
Pre-set rings are for people who do not have the time to learn and research about diamonds. Everything is done for you without having to undergo the hassle of choosing your own diamond.
And if you browse through Kay’s website, you can easily find hundreds of pre-set rings of any imaginable designs. From generic designs to designer brands like Vera Wang and Angel Sanchez, you will be spoilt for choice.
However, the problem with online pre-set diamond rings (even those offered by other vendors) is that the devil is in the details. Besides buying blind, you have little say in the diamond’s quality as this is usually dictated by the jeweler.
Regardless of buying a pre-set ring that costs $1000 or $10000, the majority of listings I found at Kay.com utilize I1 clarity diamonds as the primary stone. (I had confirmed this with their support staff as well and they don’t entertain any customizations to pre-sets).
Here are some examples you can view:
As I always tell my readers, buying I1 diamonds sight unseen means taking a substantial risk with the diamond’s eye cleanliness. In fact, I personally avoid any diamond clarity below SI2 because of quality issues. If you are wondering how a typical I1 stone looks like and why inclusions may be a problem, read this write up here.
My advice is, if you insist on buying an I1 diamond from Kays, you need to eyeball it and see it in person. With more than 900 physical stores across the country, this shouldn’t pose a problem for most people.
If you are like me, you probably have a tight budget to work with when shopping for an engagement ring. Like most branded brick and mortar stores (think Tiffany, Cartier), you would expect to pay a significantly higher price at Kay Jewelers (upwards of 30%-100% more). This is due to branding premiums and the higher cost of operating brick and mortar businesses.
Being in control and choosing your own diamond for your engagement ring is the shopping process I advocate at Beyond4cs.com.
Kay’s loose diamond inventory system is massive and you’ll find no shortage of diamonds for any specifications you are looking at. In fact, during a search I did at Kay.com recently, I found an inventory listing of more than 6,000 loose diamonds in different shapes and sizes.
To the uninitiated, sieving through such a massive selection of diamonds to find the perfect stone may be an overwhelming process. However, I assure you that it is worth the effort to do so when shopping online.
To help you through the process, you can utilize the step by step guide I had written to cherry pick the best diamonds a vendor has to offer. Note: This guide is not only applicable to online shopping, but you can also apply the same steps if you choose to shop at a physical retail store.
And to complete the ring, all you need to do is to choose a setting to mount the diamond. Kay Jewelers has a huge assortment of more than 111 ring designs to make selections from. And the good news is, choosing a setting doesn’t require much technical knowledge and is largely a matter of taste and personal preference.
This will complete the entire process of “designing your own ring”. It’s not that hard, isn’t it? The caveat here is that you need to get the diamond selection process correct and base your decisions on tangible data.
Kay Jewelers seems to be catching up with new trends of e-commerce quite slowly, but on the whole, the company is okay. There are minor glitches in their marketing philosophy. For example, you probably do not care about a ten dollar coupon if you are looking for engagement rings that cost thousands of dollars.
Overall, Kay Jewelers is great for buying smaller items like personalized jewelry and charms. In these aspects, their selection choices are second to none.
I chose a three diamond rings priced at 5999, they knocked the price down to about 5137. yes it was a costly price but my husband was proud and i figured my daughter would love it as an heirloom. Also, the guys who sold us the ring claimed to be a veteran so we thought we could trust him. we finally moved back to the states 6 months later and i decide to have the ring appraised. Turns out the ring was valued at about 2000 dollars. so naturally i called the company and brought it up with them feeling like they took advantage of me. they were rude and unhelpful and refused to take back the ring. no matter who i talked to they made me feel cheap and like a used piece of dirt and would only offer me their company to re-appraise it. to top it off, the guy who sold the ring wasn’t even in the military. to say the the least. is kay jewelers good quality? hell no. they will say anything just to push a sale.
Thanks for sharing your story and I am sorry to hear about your experience you had. At the point of sale, salespeople can sometimes say whatever things they can to help them close the sale and it is really on the onus of the consumer to do some prior research so that they know what they are getting into. While a little late, you might want to download our free ebook or browse around on Beyond4Cs.com so that you will be aware of the things to look out for if you intend to shop for another diamond ring in future.
My future husband is an impulse buyer and he hates shopping. So when we started discussing getting married, we decided it was better if I did some investigating into the ring purchase. He has little patience for online anything and I live by the Internet. I wish I had found your website at the start of my search as you seem to have covered all the bases and ultimately, I found we have similar conclusions about this diamond buying experience.
In regards to this Kay comparison, I too did some online comparisons to JA diamonds. My retailer used was Jared. In this case, I found the exact diamond to compare, proven by the GIA cert number provided by both websites. JA was much lower cost with much higher degree of information provided to consumers about the diamond. It took me a while to get here but I am confident that my purchase will be via JA when all is said and done. So, is kay jewelers a good place to buy an engagement ring? It depends on whether you like their ring designs and want to pay a big premium for their prices. I find JA a better place to shop for engagement rings.
I’m glad that the review helped in your research. The inventory system of kay jewelers loose diamonds and jareds are “shared” because they belong to the same parent company. They also have access to some of the wholesalers that work with JA. That’s why you may see diamonds with the same GIA certificate number being sold by the different retailers. The difference is that they each have different markups for the sale as well as slightly different product offerings with their setting choices. Feel free to get in touch with me via email if you need a second opinion on the JA diamond.
I second the notion where complaints weren’t handled in a professional manner. Kay’s a massive rip off for people buying diamond rings without a clue to what they are really getting.
Here’s my story: My husband bought a ring with smaller stones on the sides and just one month into wearing the ring, 2 of the sidestones fell out. Needless to say, I was furious and I went back to Kay’s to demand an explanation and that they repair the ring. What shocked me is that the sales staff had the cheek to tell me that I damaged the ring and wanted to charge a fee for the repair.
Stay away from them if you don’t want to receive inferior products and you don’t want to deal with a company that doesn’t stand behind their policies.
If you are ever in the market for jewelry Kay Jewelers is NOT the place to go. After many rounds with them and severely poor customer service, my fiance and I returned my engagement ring to them last night and purchased a new one from a different jeweler. Shortly after we became engaged we returned with my ring to have it resized. After waiting 7 days (of their 7 to 10 day policy) I contacted the store in Mt. Olive inquiring about the location of my ring and was told no one knew where it was, the manager berated me for requesting information on my now “lost” ring. After being hung up on I contacted corporate and found out there was an issue , which we just found out yesterday was an inclusion that could potentially cause my diamond to shatter if it was hit in the right spot. Now to make this nightmare even worse they had my fiance’s name spelled wrong and birth date wrong so we couldn’t pay the bill when we contacted them yet again we were informed that after everything we had been dealing with they were going to pay our first payment on the ring. Yesterday we discovered this had never happened and we were now being considered late on our payments. Not one person wants to take responsibility for the issues just pass the blame. We ended up returning my engagement ring last night and purchasing a new one else where. We will never be able to replace the sentiment so thank you Kay Jewelers for nothing…
is kay jewelers legit? Well, kay’s is by far the worse place to buy anything from, the customer service dept/special orders is a joke. my fiance purchased a ring 9/18/15, the ring needed to be sized so it was sent out, the salesperson advised me that my ring will in on 10/23/15 which happened to be my bday and anniversary, as of today which is 10/23/15 still no ring, and no explanation of when my ring will be in.
My fiancee purchased me 2 rings from Kay’s. Both of these rings have had issues. One of the rings lost several stones after less than 3 weeks of wear. When I went to pick it up from the repairs I had them look at my engagement rings and it has several broken prongs. The store employees told us I shouldn’t wear them all the time specially when sleeping ( sleeping????).When I informed her that I had numerous rings over the years that were worn all the time she just shrugged her head. Tried to file a complaint online but was told I had to call during normal business hours. Needless to say we won’t be purchasing anything else from them. 2 out of 2 sucks
After hearing about the other customers complaints. I feel a little silly, their issues of overcharging, rude, disrespectful comments. I was looking into purchasing one of the ring’s for about $3000.00 for my 60th birthday this year .But I have been buying charms,rings,earrings there and they keep breaking and the woman employee 978974, rude, dismissive. Why keep shopping there if there is no promise when jewelry breaks. That kinda makes this company just like a five and dime. If I wanted throw away jewelry, I would go to somewhere like, k, or p’s where I know it’s probably crap. I want decent pieces, I work hard for my money. So you have my information, contact me for some kind of resolution.
It’s best for you to get in touch with Kay’s directly with your issues. I’m pretty sure they might be able to resolve your issues. While I personally don’t like shopping at Kays, they are a legit business and I’m pretty sure they can come to some resolution with you.
In June 2016, I purchased a diamond wedding ring for my fiancee at Kay Jewelers with help of a consultant. My wife and I frequently took the ring back to Kay’s, as required, to check for loose diamonds. In a visit to Kay Jewelers in Meadowood Mall, Reno, NV on February 14th, 2016, Kay Jewelers told my wife and I that a diamond was loose, and that Kay’s had to send my wife’s wedding ring to their home office for tightening. After inquiring for several weeks as to when the ring would be returned (and outright lied to), Kay admitted that their entire shipment of rings had been “lost” during shipping. Kay’s admitted no guilt, and showed no remorse or sensitivity. They told my wife that they could make her another one like it…just wait several weeks for ordering, shipping, etc., no big deal, one ring was the same as another. Myself and my wife are heartbroken. Kay Jewelers will not return our money, and we don’t want a cheap “replacement”, “lookalike” ring. Kay Jewelers is a cold, heartless, company, with employees just as heartless. Think before you give this corporation your hard-earned dollars. Please take your business elsewhere, perhaps a local business.
About a year ago we purchased my wedding band set. That I absolutely fell in love with. Now 6 weeks before our wedding I take it in to be soldered together. The ring came back looking NOTHING like how it was suppose to look. So the lady that was helping us told me that she would send it back to the repair shop to get it fixed and will put a week rush on it. So a week later I get a call from her stating that they can not soldered it together the way I want it, which is the way we bought it. The ring is UGLY. I hated on site!! and it is paid off. Someone tell me how in the hell can you buy a wedding band set from somewhere and they cant put it together. A company that specializes in JEWERLY can’t piece the rings together. So now I don’t if I will have a ring on my wedding day. Not only am I so heartbroken I will NEVER recommend Kay’s to anyone!!! and I have a pretty big mouth. There..K.. needs to begin to kiss my….
I will never buy from Kay’s nor will i reccommend them to my worst enemy. My husband bought 2 very unique stones while overseas. We went to Kays because we heard they were amazing with helping out especially people in the military. My original black sapphire stone was perfect before they sent in to be set in my engagement ring and was cracked right down the middle all the through the stone when we got it back. We were told that we were seeing things, that it was our imagination. It wasn’t until we took it to another jeweler that kays confessed that they knew it was cracked before they set the stone. The replacement stone was also chipped and again we were accused of seeing things. My other ring the stone has fallen out twice and yet it is somehow my fault.
It is really important for you to get things down in writing when sending in loose gemstones. Do a proper check to verify the conditions of the final setting during pick up as any disputes raised thereafter may not be in favor for you. Anyway, what’s the follow up that Kay proposed following your situation?
My boyfriend surprised me and bought me the perfect necklace, or so I thought! I got it in the mail and was so surprised and excited! I went to take the necklace off of the black velvet piece and the chain broke in half. I was devastated. I called the customer service number and they told me that they couldn’t do anything for me that they had to speak to the person who bought it. I explained to her the reason he bought it online was because he isn’t around and at the disposal of a phone. She became defensive and told me she couldn’t do anything for me! I am extremely disappointed in Kay’s and their products. I will encourage everyone I know not to buy from Kay’s!
DO NOT BUY FROM KAY!!! My now husband bought my engagement ring from Kay in Austin Texas. I will try to make this review as short as possible but we have had many things happen. My husband bought the ring and kept it in the case for about 2 weeks till he proposed literally opened it one time to show my parents. He proposed not even 24 hours later a diamond falls out. He spent $9000 on this engagement ring there is no reason to lose a diamond. Needless to say we were very upset when everyone is like let me see the ring when they heard the news of him proposing. We were both so embarrassed. They told us they would get us a replacement ring which they did and we picked it up when we returned from our vacation. I go to buy the band before the wedding they said it would take a 4-6 weeks. ok, I happened to be in the mall about 4 weeks later so I go in to check the status of when it would be in. The manager Cindy told me that once I paid for it she would get the order out. UMMM I paid CASH for it what are you talking about??? Which I didn’t have the receipt for it bc I was not expecting to go just happened to. They should have documentation of that. I argued and argued with her and finally just dropped it until I could get a receipt ( I live over an hour away) My sister was with me at the time which also got her ring from Kay. She had it checked and there was a loose stone so she wanted to get it sent off no big deal. On the paper work they put a value of what it’s worth on the shipment in case it is lost that is what they owe to you. She had the price at $4500 which her ring and 2 bands were just appraised for $11,000 of course my sister told her there’s no way you need to reevaluate the paperwork on the ring bc there is no way she was going to send it off with that price on there. The lady Cindy told her to calm down and she’s just hormonal (my sister 7 months pregnant at the time) Which was the most unprofessional thing I have ever experienced! We just left and my sister took her ring went to a different location they could find all the paper work no problem and sent it off without a hitch. She contacted corporate about Cindy and nothing was done. I finally call and get my band ordered I go to pick it up and Cindy told me the same thing that I owed money before they would give me the band. I had the receipt in hand and she’s said oh must be a mistake. I said yes your mistake because I set all this up with you in the first place and I have had nothing but issues. I take my ring in when its due to be checked and since I just got married I wanted to get my both ring and band checked, sauntered and dipped. They again could not find the paperwork ( I went to a different location this time than where Cindy worked which I will NEVER GO BACK TO) Finally they found it and sent it off. My husband picked up the ring (luckily he kept the receipt) everything looked great….so I thought….not even 2 weeks later ANOTHER DIAMOND FALLS OUT!!!!! My husband calls corporate immediately which he could not find the paperwork!!! I keep all the documents on it handy now and he read off the number and still couldn’t find it… 3 people later and over an hour on the phone, they finally found everything and someone would call us back. Are you kidding me!!! This occurred Saturday and it is now Monday and they have not contacted us. So my husband is going to call again today and try to figure out what to do! We honestly are just going to try to get our money back and go elsewhere. Which probably won’t happen. We will see what’s next so moral of the story:
1. DO NOT BUY FROM KAY
2. IF YOU DO BUY FROM THEM KEEP ALL PAPERWORK, RECEIPTS, ETC!!!
3. DO NOT SHOP AT KAY IN BARTON CREEK MALL AUSTIN TEXAS
Again sorry for the long post but I wanted everyone to know.
Please do not buy from Kay’s. I get sick every time I see their commercials. Why isn’t the media picking up on how crooked and corrupt a company they are? I made mine using kay jewelers create your own ring feature. After my 1 karat diamond fell off my ring, I went to a different jeweler to get it reset. The new Jeweler weighed the diamond and asked me if I knew the diamond was 1/2 karat and not 1 K as I have been told! I cannot believe companies like Kays can get away like this!
So I purchased a necklace from for my girlfriend of about 3 years. Gave it to her on Valentines Day, she opened it up, put the necklace on, and the chain broke. So, I take it to the store and they said I can exchange it for a lesser necklace of the same price or I can call the website number. I decide to call the website number and Nick from online sales rudely tells me theres nothing he can do and puts me on hold for about 15 minutes. All in all, Valentines day was awful, Kay didnt help and I got a refund which I have to wait for to buy her another necklace (from a different place, obviously)
I have also had bad luck with a bracelet I got from my boyfriend. This is going to be the fourth time I am returning to the store with it. I have had a stone fall out, clasp break and color fade. HOWEVER, my boyfriend did buy me the insurance on it and every single time it was replaced or repaired. So although I find their quality questionable, their customer service is excellent!! Very friendly and helpful staff at the Plymouth location. They will be seeing me this afternoon since the clasp broke again…it just fell off my wrist… I never touch the thing…I wear it daily.
My husband purchased a Leo Diamond 3 stone ring for me, along with the diamond replacement warranty. Took my ring in every 6 months as required. This last time there was a chip in one of the smaller side diamonds so they sent it in for replacement. Great!
WRONG!!! Turns out there regular jewelry repair company does not stock any oval diamonds stones. 2 weeks later I get the ring back without being fixed. ‘sorry, we have to send it to our special repair facility that has oval stones.’ OK, then I find out my ring is discontinued so they don’t have the identical mounting that I have but they will replace it with one that is very similar. OK. 3 weeks later i get a call my ring is ready. I have never seen such a mess of a mounting in my life. The stone they replaced is a smaller stone than what I had and does not match the other 2. It is very narrow, compared to the others that are more rounded. The mounting is uneven, looks like it has a curve, the diamonds are not set evenly apart and the prongs are like globs of platinum sitting there. I tried it on and immediately cut my finger because of the rough prongs. They sent the ring back and 2 weeks later I receive the ring back with basically nothing done to it. On the back of the work order it was written “This is the best we can do” WHAT!!! My ring was perfect when I took it in and now it looks and feels like a piece of trash. I will never shop at Kay Jewelry again and hope people read these reviews and heed the warnings. If you love your jewelry buy it from a reputable place that will stand by you when needed.
Kay Jeweler’s not only sells defective engagement rings, but the Omaha, NE Westroads Kay Jeweler’s (Store #1851) provides terrible customer service. We have owned the engagement ring for LESS THAN a year and have had MORE THAN 5 loose/missing stones already.
I have worked with MULTIPLE sales representatives and have been extremely disappointed by the lack of concern or empathy displayed by each of them – and I’ve made many visits to the store (unfortunately). We purchased the certified engagement ring in August 2016 and by December 2016 it had been in the shop multiple times – first a loose stone and less than a week later, a missing stone, and then another loose stone. During the first four months that I owned the ring, I was only able to wear it about 2.5 weeks because it was in the shop the rest of the time. We never did receive any empathy and when we asked about possible solutions, they continued to say “there is nothing we can do, you are past 90 days”. In addition to issues with the engagement ring, we had them order the “matching wedding band”. Upon arrival, it did not match. The stones on the band were clearly much smaller than the stones along the engagement band. To make matters worse, the representatives tried to convince us that the stones were same size (probably just to get a sale) – but when we asked them to measure the stones, it proved the stones were in fact significantly smaller. After multiple trips to Kay Jewelers with no acceptable solution, we ended up finding a wedding band from Helzberg (great store and wonderful customer service). We attempted to have the ring cleaned June 2017 and went into Helzberg. Upon inspection, they found a loose stone on the engagement band. We immediately went to Kay Jewelers #1851 and asked to have it cleaned. They took the ring and inspected it under the microscope. Less than thirty seconds later she said, “it looks good, no loose stones so give me a few minutes while I clean it.” We were so shocked that she did not do her job adequately and questioned her by saying “really”. She continued to stand by her decision that the ring was fine and didn’t even offer to take another look at it to be sure. Finally, we told her that Helzberg discovered the loose stone and personally showed it to us — and that this wasn’t the first time in less than a year that we’ve had issues with ring. Her actual response was “well, it’s not my fault (with her hand on her hip)”. There was no “I’m sorry” or “This is terrible, let me see what I can do to help”. In fact, she never did apologize or express even an ounce of empathy and I walked out of the store leaving my husband to deal with the situation. I’m pretty sure every kiss begins with kay only for it to end up with disappointment. They ended up finding TWO loose stones and the ring was sent off to be fixed once again. It’s a good thing we bought a silicone ring because I’m not sure I’ll ever get to wear my wedding ring for more than two consecutive months.
Thanks for sharing and sorry to hear about your troubles. I hope Kay Jewelers steps up this time to fix things properly for you.
I purchased a Claddagh Mothers ring in December 2016. I love the ring but since my purchase the main mothers stone has fallen out three times. Thank God I found the stone twice. Why do they offer a ring for sale that has an issue with securing the stone or the workmanship just sucks. Either way, I will take the ring in AGAIN to get it fixed but I will never purchase or recommend Kay Jewelers to anyone. Plus I didn’t like how they made me feel when I went in to have my ring repaired. Like I purposely did something wrong. No “I so sorry or We will do everything we can to make it right”. Just a look like I’m the idiot. Please don’t buy anything from them. They don’t care, take pride in what they make or sell or stand by their customers or their products.
my husband bought me a new diamond ring for our 30th aniversary from Kay. After wearing the ring for 3 wks a side diamond stone fell out of it. I brought it in to be replaced and sized. 2 wks later the ring arrived resized with a stone still missing. No one even bothered to examine the ring and see the stone was still missing. Sent it out again to be fixed and 3 days later, stone fell out again! I demanded a totally new ring. Replacement ring I was given was lesser quality than the original so I wanted an equal or better quality ring. They found one for me but 3 wks later another stone fell out of that one. I will never buy any more jewerly from Kay. What kind of poor quality crap are they trying to sell?!
Thanks for sharing your experience and feedback of Kays. I’m actually really surprised to hear that a ring with a missing melee would make it back from their repairs without them noticing it. To me, this is really basic and fundamental quality control checks prior to returning a ring to the client after repairs and they actually dropped the ball.
The kay jeweler store in salisbury md. has an assistant manager there, Leslie. She has to be one of the rudest people I’ve ever dealt with. She has no empathy at all. I talked to her about my missing diamond and she had the nerve to ask me when her turn to speak was! What?!? This was after the fact SHE got on the phone to hear the situation. She then proceeded to laugh at my situation. Next, wanted to say that when I decide to calm down then I can come in to get it sent off for repair. Yea right! Not after reading these horrific stories on here. She doesn’t need to be in such a high position until she learns basic communication skills. All I wanted was for someone to help. All I get is a wedding band with a missing diamond.
I know it can be distressing when things go wrong. From what I surmise from your comment and I’m not trying to judge here, you need to calm down and think of a logical solution to fix your current issues. My recommendation is to get it fixed from the jeweler you bought the ring from in the first place. Obviously, that’s Kays. But if it has gotten to the extent that you don’t want any inkling of contact with them, just bring your ring to another jeweler you trust. Replacing a melee diamond is a relatively simple job and doesn’t cost much.
Never ever buy from kay jewelry on line. I ordered a diamond tinnis bracelet for 3000.00 paid in full. On black friday 2020. Free 2 day shipping. The day that it was suppose to be here I started calling them spoke to several customer service people and they couldnt find my order and it felt like a scam. So I spoke with customer service Annette and she says if it wasnt here by Monday or Teu to contact them again. Yesterday Monday Dec 8th 2020. I recieve a email saying they were going to ship it out. Well today I get another email saying it was not invoiced and did not have it. I then took a look on line and yes they are still selling the bracelet. Getting ready to take kay jewelers to court over this. And get my money back.
I am not a fan of Kay Jewelers and to be clear, I am not defending them but will be replying in an objective manner. Sometimes, jewelers can drop the ball and things can screw up. They might have a miscommunication or glitch in their online system. I doubt it is anything malicious on their part. I don’t think Kay will actually scam you for $3000 because it’s really not a lot of money for a large business. As for poor customer service and whether they could have handled this better, I would say there could be room for improvement. As long as you are within the money back guarantee, you can simply request a refund and I am sure Kays will honor it. Stay calm and keep an open channel of communication. If things still doesn’t work out, let me know again and I will get in touch with someone who can help you.